When is a APBT a APBT ?

[Cheyenne Indians AST]

This sounds stupid , but in europe they seem to call a amstaff without registration papers a pitbull.
So whats really the matter - does the rest of the world give them the same name or ...?

I do of course know that a real pitbull has a kennelclub reg. and a pedigree - the europeans think - well the dumb ones - that what they have a amstaff and mate her to another without reg. the litter that they have a pitbull ..silly people .

I believe that a apbt is a real breed and like all real breeds must have a real pedigree ...but i like to hear from you leri and others how it is.

john

[PitBullLeri]

Hi John,

As you already know, the term "Pit Bull" is slang for American Pit Bull Terrier. But many short coated, musculature dogs with large heads are often referred to as Pit Bulls simply because of their look. Even if they are a complete different breed all together!

If someone crossed a AST with a APBT, those dogs in my opinion would be APBT, as they would NOT be eligible for AKC - AST registration. But, they would be eligibile for UKC registration as APBT. Some people will call this a cross breed, or mix.

It seems that many people feel if it's not an AKC registered breed, it's a mutt. Others feel if it's not a fighting dog used for fighting or directly from fighting descendants, it's not a Pit Bull.

Personally, I don't care what anyone calls my dog, as long as they fill MY expectations :-) But then this is a big issue for many who want to compete at a higher level. The AKC breeds will always be alloted more choice for competition.

For those with thin skin, who don't want their dog referred to as something it's not...this may be the wrong breed for them.

Bye fur now,
Leri

[Cheyenne Indians AST]

There is a hugh problem with pitbull look alikes in several countries in europe.
Since there are people that look at their money first the outcross and litters with unregistred pitbulls amstaffs or look a likes has increase rappitly.

I think that because of the easy way dogs can be registered with the ukc , and the akc , european kennelclubs have been holding back the registration of pitbull even with proper pedigrees.

I have to agree i find it strange that someone can easily register one and the same dog to two kennelclubs , and have them called different in eacht club , i don't believe that is any good- especially because on paper they are the same , but in reality we like them to be different because of laws and rules ( in europe that is).
Pitbull is a word that brings unpleasantness for most of the ignorant people ...maybe even used as a word for something bad --- like idiot or fool ..its more a calling name.
I know this is totally wrong , but very very true , i do hope we can change the oppinion of those ignorant people, but that won't be easy.
I just wanted to give you how others in this part of the world think ...well most of them ..the ignorant ones that is.
I like to hear the oppinion from others as well...
So don't let the name pitbull to stand for something bad ... i hope you understand me leri and others.

john

[Cheyenne Indians AST]

So just to be clear ,
A real APBT is a dogbreed registered at the UKC and ADBA under that breedname ?
And how come that a akc registered dog when registred at the UKC is named a pitbull terrier ?
And can a Akc Amstaff als be registered at the ADBA ..

Just so that others can understand :-))

Questions questions ...lol

john

[PitBullLeri]

John writes:
So just to be clear , A real APBT is a dogbreed registered at the UKC and ADBA under that breedname ?

Leri:
Yes, the American Pit Bull Terrier is registered with the UKC and ADBA as such. But, when you refer to the breed as "real", many will argue it's not "real" unless it can fight.

John:
And how come that a akc registered dog when registred at the UKC is named a pitbull terrier ?

Leri:
Because the UKC does not call the breed(s) American Stafforshire Terriers, they only recognized and register American PIT BULL Terriers. The UKC registers just about (maybe all?) AKC breeds. But, they can call them by a different name.

John:
And can a Akc Amstaff also be registered at the ADBA ..

Leri:
Oh yes, absolutely! And there are AKC AST's registered with the ADBA as American Pit Bull Terriers.

John:
Just so that others can understand )

Leri:
It is confusing, and frustrating. For example, when the working AST/PitBull groups first approached the AWDF about becoming a member club, they (AWDF) made it clear that the breed clubs must be of the AKC variety (i.e. AST). This left out many of us with working Pit Bulls. Graciously the members of FAST opened up their "registry/scorebooks" to include AKC, UKC, ADBA, ABA, CKC, etc. Unfortunately though, many of the die hard Pit people were not happy with this arrangement and refused to compete and call their Pit Bulls, Am Staffs. As if it were a dirty word. I was one of those who refused for many years. Keeping in mind, they can compete with us "as" pit bulls, but we can NOT compete with them as AST's. It gets worse. Just recently at this past AWDF meeting, when the vote for the Working Pit Bull Terrier Club of America came up, the argument they used to keep us in the "guest" member status as opposed to full member was that AWDF does not allow TWO breed clubs of the same breed to represent. They already have FAST = Am Staffs. FAST is the Am Staff group that does allow APBT. But, the WPBTCA will be exclusively for the APBT only. Try as I may to convince them that my dogs are NOT Am Staffs, the fact I work closely with the Federation for American Stafforshire Terriers (FAST) and have competed with my dogs as FAST registered didnt fly. I explained as best I could, but many were, and will continue to be confused on the subject. So, at least we got guest status, until they can come to terms that there are two different breeds, recognized by two different main registeries. AKC and UKC. The fact that the dogs in the AKC category can "cross over" to be pit bulls if they so choose, is just a plus for them, IMO. But should not in any way take away from the APBT.

Running through my mind the entire meeting was "People, can't we just all get along?" LOL!

Leri

[Cheyenne Indians AST]

One of the main reasons why the APBT has been banned in numerous european countries is the fact that is was easy to ban/forbid them.
The UKC/ADBA are two kennelclubs which are not recognized by the FCI - the main kennelclub for most countries in the world.
I believe that it was easier to ban a breed because of this non recognizing of the kennelclubs.

But if we look further into the laws of what is recognized and what isnt , you will see that for example the european community ( E.C)doesnt allow cartels , when a cartel is a group that has the right to act on their own , without any competition.
This is the matter with the FCI , so therefor the FCI is not recognized to be the only kennelclub that is allowed to hand out pedigrees.
What the european community does do , is to recognize the way how the FCI registers but in another way then saying they are the one and only.

Strange enough , the EC , where under also the dutch kennelclub (FCI) is registered , only recognize the AKC , that made it easier for the governments to ban breed, because of that.

Its alot of politics , but i think it is wise to tell those that doesnt know these rules and those things like we do :-)

Thanks for explaining -

john

[dakota]

Well,

I felt the same way about ukc and akc and apbt and adba and the ukc/akc "cross".

Because I had written a lot of books about the breed I did understand the differences , the only thing I feel a little bit confused with is the

ADBA and the APBT , what is the difference amongst them?


If you put it that way John it is easy, no, why it was easy to ban the breeds, with one exception the AKC registered ones.


What do you think about the book from Diane Jessup The Working Pitbull, can this book be taken as truth or is it just an explanation of one person in contrast by another?

Dakota

[BajasDogs]

Hi guys long time no see. I know you all know this. But the Am Staff originally came from UKC American Pit Bull Terriers. The UKC was originally founded as an all Pit Bull registry.

I thought that the European countries Had pit bulls Banned because the Am Staf people wanted to make people think that they were the cause for the maulings going on over there. I think it's sad, that a piece of paper that says my dog is an Am Staf is what saved your sector of the breed. I am one who thinks that Am Stafs and pits are the same breed. I think the separation is bad and helps fuel BSL. I can see it happening over here. Hard core Am Staff people blame us Pit Bull people for all the bites and all the dogs in the dog pounds. I can imagine the same thing happened over there long ago. But the rich people with Stafs and influence won over the poor people and their Pit Bulls. Over here that will not happen. If one goes down they all will.

[Carina]

Hallo!
In Sweden they have not banned Pitbull, you can´t registry them like pure breed, the reason why not, is that the Swedish Kennel Club have to make a choice between AST and APT. The cooperation with (i believe it was) UKC, say ONE breed. OK, if AST/APT was "the same" you were allowed to registry APT in Sweden to.


The problem I see for the APT, is that the people crossbreeding all kind of breeds-Amstaff-Rottweiler-Dobermann and more, call their breed Pitbull, because it sounds "cool".

Carina

[Pierre]

Hi there,
I think Carina's opinion is good; here in france as in other european countries, pit bull have been banned because, for our governements, they are only mixes of agressive dogs from different breeds. But it's not always an error. I remenber 10 years ago, there wasn't many apbt, amstaff ou bull terrier here but a lot of people wanted pit bulls. Instead of importing good but expensive dogs from other countries, it was easier to create their own pit bull crossing those who where already here with other breeds more present in the country. I travelled a lot to see these so called pit bulls and i can tell you that i didn't see a lot of APBT!!!
I can remember a TV reporter who talked about a pit bull whose breed was Rotweiller!!!

Of course Amstaff and APBT are the same breed the AKC studbook was often open to the UKC dogs till 1972 and the UKC still continu to register AKC amstaff but i'm not talking here of all the dogs we use to call pit bulls in europe.
It's true that some amstaff people here thought to increase their popularity claiming that pit bulls were dangerous and vicious dogs but it was the same in USA.
I've read a letter from Mr W.M.WHITAKER president of the STCA in 1958 who recalled to the club members that the Amstaff and the APBT was the same breed. He wanted to try to stop the running down methods against the APBT used by some amstaff breeders to increase their sales.
I thing American AKC breeders have the chance to have the UKC in their country, because maybe one day it will be important for the AKC amstaff gene pool to open the stud book anoter time to the UKC dogs. So the battle against BSL should be the same for all the bull and terrier type breeds (and breeders)

Take care

Pierre

[Cheyenne Indians AST]

Sure , carina is saying good things,but there is a problem with the people overhere .
If its up to me the apbt was still there , its a pity that so many idiots got their hands on the breed and ruined it for the good people.

One thing is for sure - when you get to know and understand your dogs , you less like humans ;-)

[Cheyenne Indians AST]

BajasDogs said:

Hi guys long time no see. I know you all know this. But the Am Staff originally came from UKC American Pit Bull Terriers. The UKC was originally founded as an all Pit Bull registry.

I thought that the European countries Had pit bulls Banned because the Am Staf people wanted to make people think that they were the cause for the maulings going on over there. I think it's sad, that a piece of paper that says my dog is an Am Staf is what saved your sector of the breed. I am one who thinks that Am Stafs and pits are the same breed. I think the separation is bad and helps fuel BSL. I can see it happening over here. Hard core Am Staff people blame us Pit Bull people for all the bites and all the dogs in the dog pounds. I can imagine the same thing happened over there long ago. But the rich people with Stafs and influence won over the poor people and their Pit Bulls. Over here that will not happen. If one goes down they all will.

Well this isnt really what happened , the amstaff people didnt have anything to say at all.
The problem was that pitbull owners started to cross there dogs and those dogs make problems , and because the general public named them pitbull terriers , they got banned ..thats the real problem.
That is the reason why i wrote this topic , so you and others can read how things are and how wrong they are in nummerous countries.
After holland , germany and other europeans countries , they are going to change a few things.

We in holland nolonger have the ban or any law that forbids our breed anymore.
The dutch minister of agroculture decided to distroy the old law proposal to ban four breeds - the AST , the fila , the dogo and the mastino !

So its party time.

In germany - so im told - there will be a possible change in laws for the banned breeds ..i think that they realized that banned those breeds didnt had much effect on biting accidents at all.

So we are going the better way now - hopefully other countries that are planning or talking about a BSL will think again and follow us.

john