Hapo
Junior Member
Posts: 2
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Post by Hapo on May 18, 2004 20:02:58 GMT -5
are there any pure bloodlines? seems they all have been crossed to some degree.
Ruffian X-Pert Sertoma Tacoma
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Post by Cheyenne Indians AST on May 19, 2004 3:31:52 GMT -5
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Hapo
Junior Member
Posts: 2
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Post by Hapo on May 19, 2004 8:02:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. What would you consider White Rock's line to be? Ruffian? What about Tonkawa? Ruffian also?
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Post by Cheyenne Indians AST on May 22, 2004 6:38:26 GMT -5
To read about the diffirent lines , or kennels you can always read that information on their sites. White rock started years ago with ruffian dogs if im not mistaken - maybe carla , who works for the WR kennel can answer this question much better.
All i know is that it all started with two major lines , the xpert and the ruffian line , from there it all started and breeders started to use them and took off from there.
john
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Jet957
Junior Member
Posts: 19
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Post by Jet957 on Oct 20, 2004 4:53:41 GMT -5
Hi there all, Since I am new to the forum and also to the breed I was searchig on the forum and found this interesting topic.
I will consider this topic as my starting point. I went to the link provided by John and started reading.
I dont want to sound disrespectful nor stupid, but i didnt understand a thing. The only thing I understood was who started these line and with whom they bred.
My question is or what any newbie would like to know and understand is; What are all these 5 different line stand for? Which was bred for show and which for game?
I hope someone can shed some light on this
Jairo
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Carla
Junior Member
Posts: 19
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Post by Carla on Oct 23, 2004 20:24:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. What would you consider White Rock's line to be? Ruffian? What about Tonkawa? Ruffian also? White Rock is essentially Ruffian. A little Tacoma was added when Ch. WR Jet Bomber was bred to Brown's Tacoma Storm. Some X-Pert was added when Ch. WR Pixie of Fraja (1/2 X-Pert) was bred to Ch. WR Handsome Devil. These crosses came together in the pedigree of Ch. Skram's WR Chasqui (Gringo). Popeye and Mountain Lion come down from the Bomber x Tacoma Storm cross. I believe Tonkawa is basically Ruffian, but I am not familiar with what Hendrix has been producing lately. Carla
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Carla
Junior Member
Posts: 19
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Post by Carla on Oct 23, 2004 20:42:48 GMT -5
are there any pure bloodlines? seems they all have been crossed to some degree. Ruffian X-Pert Sertoma Tacoma Right, no "pure" lines remain. The dogs labeled "pure Ruffian" today are NOT as pure as the original Ruffian dogs that Harriman and Whittaker bred, but they have been selectively bred "pure" from the time they came out of Peggy Harper's kennel. Peggy outcrossed her original Ruffian dogs with Sky King (X-Pert Rowdy Rascal x Ruffian Gerty of Har-Wyn), so the dogs coming out of her kennel are more accurately "Har-Wyn" dogs. But that never caught on as a descriptive for Peggy's dogs - people continued to call them "Ruffian" and do so today. Very few Sertoma and Tacoma dogs remain. The lines do appear as outcrosses in other lines. Ruffian and X-Pert have come together in Fraja dogs. So, the original lines are being blended to form other lines (although it is arguable as to whether White Rock and Fraja are "lines" - I guess history will tell...). Carla
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Carla
Junior Member
Posts: 19
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Post by Carla on Oct 23, 2004 20:58:24 GMT -5
Hi there all, My question is or what any newbie would like to know and understand is; What are all these 5 different line stand for? Which was bred for show and which for game? Jairo I think it's difficult for someone new to the breed to take in all those names and try to figure it all out. It does take some years of seeing a lot of different dogs all over the country, talking to people, studying pedigrees, comparing, observing what dogs produce, etc. Looking at pedigrees will show you what ancestors and combinations are common in the breedings to produce the "family" that IS the line. The differences and similarities in the lines can be subtle. Lines become known for certain characteristics, but those characteristics don't hold true for every representative of the line. Some characteristics are common to more than one line - you begin to see the trends after a while. I really don't want to get into what each line is known for here, but maybe that can be picked up by others (and that's also a good argument!). As for which lines are bred for show and "gameness"...I doubt there are any lines being used to develop game dogs - that is a specific quality that is illegal to test for. If there IS anyone breeding game Stafs, they are going to be darn quiet about it! Most Staf lines are bred for show and many of those same show lines also produce good obedience, agility and Schutzhund dogs. I know of no one here in the States that breeds SPECIFICALLY for obedience or agility or Schutzhund; in other words, there is no one line that I would call a "working" line. A good breeder will be breeding for good temperament and that proper good temperament will enable many dogs to excel at tasks such as obedience, agility and protection sports. Carla
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Jet957
Junior Member
Posts: 19
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Post by Jet957 on Oct 24, 2004 5:19:36 GMT -5
Hi there Carla, I would like to thank you for your replies. Very informative. I have read my own post again and i think that what i wrote didnt come out the way i wanted.
I know that a game dog is bred for fighting and stuff. But that is not what i am about and I know if there are breeders doing this that shoud be quite about it. What i meant was an Am. Staff with high spirit, tremendous drive (drive being used in traineings like Personal Protection), and a well balanced temperament.
Thats what i am after and I thought that the lines discribed above had something to do with this. I think that drive is something from with in the dogs and no line can determine it. Thats what i concluded from your post. Thank you ;D
I really thought this forum is/was dead. I am very interested in this breed and finally found a forum as extensive as this one. I hope to see this forum more active....
Thnx again Carla
Jairo
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Post by dakota on Oct 26, 2004 3:34:24 GMT -5
White Rock is essentially Ruffian. A little Tacoma was added when Ch. WR Jet Bomber was bred to Brown's Tacoma Storm. Some X-Pert was added when Ch. WR Pixie of Fraja (1/2 X-Pert) was bred to Ch. WR Handsome Devil. These crosses came together in the pedigree of Ch. Skram's WR Chasqui (Gringo). Popeye and Mountain Lion come down from the Bomber x Tacoma Storm cross. I believe Tonkawa is basically Ruffian, but I am not familiar with what Hendrix has been producing lately. Carla so you can say that mountain lion is ruffian/tacoma line? but that turned in to be WR?
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Post by dakota on Oct 26, 2004 3:48:42 GMT -5
Carla are there programms which can tell you what % is in your dogs line? I know my dog is from ruffian line. (well if you talk ruffian or x-pert) Just curious that's all. I also think almost every ast can be a nice dog to do sports with, there are too many ast's that are just liying next to the warm cosy wooden fire in the living room. No matter what sport you like to do, I know dogs that are agility, ipo, show, frisbee, weightpulling, carnicross, obience, rescue dog, ... They are all nice family dogs too with a heart for people and the will to please their human master. Few believe that an ast can be a good working dog (i mean almost every other dogowner say, ow a ast is just a fighting dog, nothing more) but that is NOT true, i have read stories about ast's that are doing even better then sheperds,... Our breed can do so much more.
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Carla
Junior Member
Posts: 19
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Post by Carla on Oct 28, 2004 20:54:10 GMT -5
so you can say that mountain lion is ruffian/tacoma line? but that turned in to be WR? Storm was about 40% Tacoma. So her pups from the Bomber breeding are about 20%. One of those pups was Ch. Logue's WR Ox Bomber, and he was bred right back into White Rock (Ch. Skram's WR Pearl) to get Mountain Lion. So Mountain Lion is only about 10% Tacoma. So he is mostly Ruffian with a little Tacoma. Tacoma was also used as an outcross by Cliff Ormsby when he added X-Pert Black Susie into his X-Pert line. In spite of her name, Black Susie was pure Tacoma. Carla
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